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A Conversation about 9/11

Stunned, I hardly could think of words to say when Salina, a business acquaintance said, "If the people in Afghanistan were civilized we might have another choice besides war, but they aren't'." She went on to say that violence was all they could understand and gave an example of the violence one man from Afghanistan did to his son.

After sitting quietly for a few seconds, I asked, "Do you believe there are-or are not people in this country who have done atrocious acts of violence to their own children?" Salina frowned for a minute and then said, "Yes, of course, but . . ." then she stopped, without finishing her sentence.

I asked her, "What is your opinion about people in a country like ours that you consider to be more civilized? Do you think any significant number or groups of them would condone violence against others because of differences in race or religion? Or do you think it is less likely?" Again, she frowned and thought even longer, then said, "Yeah. Well, it might be less likely, but maybe not. Obviously, people in civilized countries can be full of hate and violence. The people in my own religion have been persecuted.

I asked, "Do you think violence is more justifiable toward people you see as less civilized?". She said, "Well, I did. I didn't think they'd listen to anything else."

Next, I asked, "In your mind, how is calling the people of Afghanistan uncivilized different from how we have said that about Native Americans or people from Africa as a way to justify things like mass murder and slavery." Sabrina's eyes got wide and she said, "I guess it's not really different, is it? I told her,

I hear you say that there is no choice but war because the people in Afghanistan are not civilized. At the same time, I'm aware that people from your culture have suffered from generalizations that lead to hatred and violence. So it seems to me that you are showing the kind of prejudice toward people in Afghanistan that you don't want others to show toward you. I think anytime any of us see ourselves as "superior" to whole group of other people, and at the same time see that group as a threat or danger, it provides the justification for violence against innocent people even genocide. I feel shocked, actually, jarred. I find it terrifying to hear you say these things.

Salina stared off into space and then said,

You know, I think you are right. I'm going to try really hard not to think that way or say those kinds of things any more. I think I do it out of rebellion. My mom is always talking about peace and is a flaming liberal about everything, and so I think I've become the war monger or the conservative to defy her. I'm 43 years old and I've done it all my life, take the opposite position she has. Wow. I think it's time to quit it.

I predicted, "I do believe that if you always defy her, then you will be set-in-stone to be in the opposite position she is in and then you won't be free to think things through yourself. On the other hand, If you can stop always reacting by taking the position opposite hers, then you may or may not agree with her, but you can have the freedom to reason things out yourself, and perhaps find more of your own wisdom."

Salina's eyes brighten. Yeah, that would be great. She laughed, "Shock my mom too! I might enjoy that! Seriously, I am really going to work on this.

Sharon's Notes about the conversation

During my initial reaction to what Salina said, every fiber of my being wanted to just tell her how wrong she was, but I struggled with myself to avoid simply trying to get her to change her mind. Had I done that, I would have been in the mind set of trying to control her attitude.

Instead, I struggled inwardly until I could come to a place of curiosity about how she saw the attitudes and behaviors of various people in both countries, she shifted completely away from her original position. If she had not shifted, I still would not have tried to convince her, simply exchanged ideas and expressed myself with clarity, which I think is much more inspirational than harsh judgments. It leaves the other person room to think about it later, rather than be locked into power struggle.

The kind of change Salina made might seem unrealistic, too easy. One person who read this article, said, "She must have been ready to change." I don't believe that is true, as she was very agitated when we started the conversation, speaking in such a loud voice others were turning to look. Had I argued back, I think she would have accelerated quickly.

The kind of change Salina did actually make during this short conversation was not a "giving in" to my position, but a genuine, self-initiated, spontaneous movement on her part. Such seemingly sudden changes not common during traditional arguments, they are common when we use non-defensive methods. And at the same time, this kind of conversation holds me more accountable for my behavior regardless of how the other person responds.

Salina also made both forms of "quantum leap" that people often take during a non-defensive conversation. She had an immediate insight that increased her self-awareness and she made a commitment to alter her behavior.

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